Season 2, Episode 3: Eating Veggies & Picky Eaters

Transcript

Conner: (00:07)
Welcome to Kiddos In the Kitchen, a podcast hosted by my mom.

Stephanie: (00:17)
When Kim Bise's daughter was a toddler, she developed asthma and eczema.

Kim Bise: (00:22)
It started to get to the point where we couldn't control either. And so we were taking her to the emergency room a lot. And if you have kids with asthma, it's a very scary thing. You're in there and you just get everything that they suggest, which was oral steroids, all these breathing treatments. And because we couldn't get it under control and nobody could really assist us in guidance in what to do, we knew that it was just going to be years and years of continuously going to the ER.

Stephanie: (00:48)
Kim started to wonder if food was somehow connected to asthma. Online research wasn't especially helpful. But when she took her daughter to a holistic doctor, they learned that her child was intolerant to dairy and eggs.

Kim Bise: (01:01)
Once we eliminated dairy and eggs, her eczema cleared up, her asthma, we got it under control.

Stephanie: (01:08)
And that's how Kim discovered a new way of eating and cooking.

Kim Bise: (01:12)
Bringing the kids into the kitchen started because with all of these limitations, she needed to learn how to cook for herself so that when she grows up and moves out, she can continue to do this lifestyle without having to depend on somebody else.

Stephanie: (01:29)
Welcome to Kiddos in the Kitchen, a podcast about helping busy adults find the inspiration and information they need to teach the kids in their lives how to cook. I'm your host, Stephanie Conner. And today we're going to talk about picky eating and getting kids to eat more vegetables.

Speaker 4: (01:53)
Support for this podcast comes from Active Voice Communications, a content strategy and copywriting firm that works with food and wellness, healthcare technology, and education companies across the country. Whether you're looking for content strategy or creation, Active Voice Communications serves as an extension of your team, bringing concepts to life, taking plans to fruition and transforming strategies into results. Learn more at theactivevoice.com.

Stephanie: (02:22)
Kim Bise is a working mom of two, ages 10 and 7, and she's the writer behind the blog, naturaldeets.com, where she focuses on clean eating recipes and tips and tricks on how to get your kids into the kitchen. You mentioned clean eating and I think that's a term a lot of us have probably heard before, and we may have different understandings of what that is. So for you and your family, how do you define eating clean?

Kim Bise: (02:48)
You're right. It does mean different things to different people. The general philosophy of clean eating is eating as close to nature as possible. It means cutting out most processed foods. I say most because we're busy, so sometimes you need to have that. But for the most part, you're just eating grass-fed meats and pasteurized chicken and fruits and vegetables, organic as much as possible. Really the idea is just to kind of get yourself away from processed foods. And if you are new to clean eating, you kind of want to just start there because it can become overwhelming. There's a lot of different pieces to it and you will just get overwhelmed and give up. When we started, we just started adding organic fruits and vegetables.

Stephanie: (03:29)
I like that definition, because I think that's something we can understand.

Kim Bise: (03:33)
It gets confusing because different people take it to mean different things too. You can be somebody who just eats organic fruits and vegetables, but then you can also be on the other side of the spectrum where you're down to eliminating plastics and a whole lifestyle change.

Stephanie: (03:46)
I think what I took away from your story is that you were really looking for something that worked for your family and stumbled onto something that everyone in your family can do and enables your daughter to be healthier.

Kim Bise: (03:59)
Right. That's exactly it.

Stephanie: (04:02)
What I was most interested in is how has she gotten her own kids to eat more vegetables? Because look, we've had dieticians and doctors tell us not to worry, but I know of no parent who doesn't want their kid to eat more green things. But first I wanted to hear about the hurdles Kim faced in getting her kids to eat vegetables.

Kim Bise: (04:22)
The biggest hurdle is that they just have this thing in their mind that they hate vegetables. And so anytime I tell them about a new vegetable, they immediately think, "Ew, I don't like it."

Stephanie: (04:33)
No matter what color it is?

Kim Bise: (04:34)
Right. I mean, they'll try it because we have this rule that you have to try everything once. I try to keep it really light, because if you make it serious enforcement to eat it, then they're going to hate it even more. They're just going to try to prove to you that they actually hate it. And so we'll play little games where I'll say, "Just try it." And then somebody makes a face and we all laugh at them and they tend to like that because they're silly. And so they'll just keep eating it to make faces. And then sometimes I'll film them because they like to watch themselves on film.

Kim Bise: (05:02)
The biggest success that we've had lately is green smoothies. One of the challenges I learned there is when I first heard about green smoothies, I just started making them really green and expecting the kids to drink it. They would try it and they hated it. So we had to start with a high volume of fruits and just a little bit of vegetables, and then we've slowly changed it. So now they are more green than they are fruits. That's been a big success for us. They think of it as dessert. After dinner, when they're watching TV, they'll ask for a smoothie. And to me, that's a big win because in the past they would've never done that.

Stephanie: (05:37)
What are some things that you've tried that didn't work?

Kim Bise: (05:41)
The biggest one that stands out to me that I still feel kind of bad about is I just tried forcing them to eat it. I couldn't understand, I think until I started really looking into it, I thought they were just being defiant because for a while, when they were younger, they were eating anything that I would put in front of them. And then at some point they figured out that they don't have to eat what I put in front of them. And then they just started refusing it. And so I would make them sit there until they ate it. I would just say, "Take two bites. You don't even have to eat it all. Just take two bites and then you can leave." It was just a battle and everybody was angry at the end, there was crying. It was frustrating for everybody. I think that was one of the biggest things I've tried that hasn't worked. I don't do that anymore. I've just decided to pick your battles and just let it go.

Stephanie: (06:26)
So tell us what is working. The steps that you've taken to introduce more vegetables.

Kim Bise: (06:32)
There's three things that really stood out to me that I have done in the past. The first was hiding vegetables in their food. This is a controversial one. Some people don't think you should hide the vegetables, that they should be able to see it. But in reality, it wasn't working for me. I would put vegetables on their plate and they wouldn't eat it. And so I started making purees. One of the very first ones that we started with was a beet puree. And you don't even have to cook anything. I'm all about not cooking if you don't have to. It's just so much easier. You take the beets and you just put them into your blender, add a little water and puree it. And then you freeze them into ice cubes. Before we knew about the cheese, I would make them macaroni and cheese and I would just put beat cubes in it and then we would call it princess mac and cheese. And so I started kind of experimenting with that because they loved it and the beats were sweet and so it added a little bit of flavor, but not much.

Kim Bise: (07:23)
And so I tried it with spinach and kale and it worked. The trick is that you can't get overexcited and add too much because then they start to suspect things. You could hide it into any kind of sauce. So spaghetti sauce or tacos even. I would put cauliflower into tacos. That's kind of become the main way that I got them to eat a lot of vegetables. The second thing is that I taught them to eat the vegetables first so that they can enjoy the rest of their food. It sounds so ridiculous but to this day it works. They'll say, "I ate all of my vegetables so now I can eat this part." And they'll kind of race each other on who can eat it faster. But the point is that they are eating it. And then the third one is just cooking with them. I just bring them into the kitchen, and I usually give them carrots or the vegetables to chop up, and I'll see them putting it in their mouth while they're chopping. They're not even thinking about it. They're just grabbing it and eating it.

Stephanie: (08:15)
Last year, Kim was teaching her 10-year-old daughter some knife skills.

Kim Bise: (08:20)
We've played around in the past with a butter knife. But now I bought her a little kid chef knife, and she actually prefers to use mine just because it's easy. So that's the thing. I wouldn't waste money on those kid knives first of all, just because they're kind of awkward. They put these little finger holders in there, but they don't use it because it's kind of awkward. And so I've been teaching her how to use my chef knife. She's going slow, but that's where she's at. My son, since he's only 6, for the most part, he's peeling vegetables. We give him the carrots, cucumbers, and he'll peel. He can also do things with a butter knife, but that's limited because there's not much you can cut with butter knives.

Stephanie: (08:59)
Have you observed any other benefits in having them there in the kitchen with you?

Kim Bise: (09:03)
Yes. The biggest benefit I've noticed is if I bring them into the kitchen with me and have them help even just make a snack, they'll start to tell me about their day. I only get two hours with my kids on worknights. We're just busy trying to get dinner on the table and get homework done and all of that. And so when they come home from school, I'll say, "How was your day?" And they just say, "Good. Can I play video games?" They just want to go off. But if I bring them into the kitchen with me, they'll start to tell me about their day. They're not even thinking about it. I don't think they do it on purpose, but they'll start to talk about their friends or things that happened at school.

Kim Bise: (09:37)
And so for me as a mom, that's been the biggest benefit that I actually get to hear about their day and kind of bond with them. Aside from that, just the fact that they're so confident in it. It's nice to see them confident in something. And so when their friends come over, they'll say, "I'll make you a sandwich." Or, "I'll make something for you." I just love to see that because I know that when they go off on their own one day, they'll at least be able to make a sandwich or make something so they're not eating out all the time. And that's huge.

Stephanie: (10:06)
That warms my heart.

Kim Bise: (10:08)
I mean, the time goes so fast. I look back and I'm like, we should have started this earlier when they were even younger, just because it just flies by. And those are some of the happiest memories I have with them.

Stephanie: (10:19)
You can find Kim's blog naturaldeets.com. That's D-E-E-T-S. And you can follow her on Instagram and Facebook @naturaldeets. But before we say goodbye to Kim, it's time for Kitchen Questions where I ask my guests a few quick questions to understand her and her kitchen a little better.

Child: (10:42)
It's time for Kitchen Questions. I have a question. What would happen if you put a little bit of the wrong ingredient inside a cookie? Why are cupcakes squishy? How often do you burn things? Do you like cake? What is the difference between baking and roasting? What is your favorite recipe?

Stephanie: (11:09)
What is one ingredient you always have on hand in your kitchen?

Kim Bise: (11:13)
It would be a dairy-free butter. Actually, it would be a tie between dairy-free butter and almond milk, because I like to bake, and with the kids not being able to eat dairy, those are the two ingredients I use almost in every recipe. And it goes on anything. For example, today we made chai tea latte for my husband and I, and then we've had smoothies and the kids had cereal with it. So we're using it all the time. And then the butter is because when I don't know what to feed the kids, they'll always eat toast. So they'll eat toast with butter and then I'll put flax seeds and hemp parts on top of it.

Stephanie: (11:50)
What is a recipe or dish that you're known for in your home?

Kim Bise: (11:53)
So there's this, I think it's a Chinese dish. I grew up in Hawaii and so it's a mixture of all these Asian cultures, but there's this one dish that you make after Thanksgiving called chuke? I think some people call it jook. Basically, it's just rice and you boil your turkey carcass for a very long time. And I've learned how to make that quickly because usually you only eat it after Thanksgiving. I can put so many vegetables into that dish that we eat it all the time. The kids love it. Basically, it's just rice soup, I guess, with turkey and I'll add whatever vegetables we have in the fridge.

Stephanie: (12:29)
So are you cooking whole turkeys throughout the year?

Kim Bise: (12:32)
No. The day after Thanksgiving, we go to the store and we buy the turkeys on sale and then we'll roast them. That started because my husband loves turkey so much and we do Thanksgiving with our friends and family so we don't get to bring much home. And so one year he said, "Let's just make our own turkey." And so we bought a couple and we roasted them and then we just cut it up and freeze it. And then throughout the year, I'll use that.

Stephanie: (12:54)
What is your favorite vegetable?

Kim Bise: (12:57)
It has to be broccoli. Just because I feel like it can go into anything and I like to eat it steamed or sauteed. My lazy night dinner is just a stir-fry. And usually I'll just throw broccoli into that. But yeah, broccoli, because it goes in everything.

Stephanie: (13:12)
What is your favorite way to prepare vegetables?

Kim Bise: (13:15)
Roasted vegetables. I actually love roasting and I like it also because you can do a lot. I know sheet pan recipes are really popular right now, but before that, I never really thought to do it. You can put multiple sheet pans of vegetables into the oven and then you can eat it for dinner that night, and then it also is really good on salads the next couple of days.

Stephanie: (13:34)
What is your go-to weeknight meal?

Kim Bise: (13:37)
Stir-fry is one of them, but I have another one that's really good. It's just coconut water, the kind that you buy at the store. You put coconut water into a pot and then you put chicken thighs and vegetables. Just let it simmer until the chicken thighs are cooked. And then we serve it with a little container of soy sauce and garlic, fresh garlic. And so you dip the chicken and the vegetables into the garlic sauce, and then you eat it like that. It is so fast and so easy and everybody likes it in our family. So that is my go-to.

Stephanie: (14:09)
What is your favorite thing to bake?

Kim Bise: (14:12)
My favorite thing to bake is muffins. I have a bunch of healthy muffins that we kind of rotate through. Right now, we're eating strawberry muffins. The tough thing with clean eating while you're also eliminating ingredients, is that there's so many other things you can't add. You can't have refined sugar and you can't use white flour. And so I've had to experiment a lot with using different types of flours, and they all come out in different consistencies. So we have one right now where we use a combination of white, whole wheat flour and chickpea flour. And then we're using flax eggs and honey and maple syrup to sweeten it and the fresh strawberries. That's my favorite one to cook because we all love it, and I can make it on the weekends and it'll last us for at least a couple of days through the week.

Stephanie: (14:57)
That sounds really good. Thank you very much for playing my game.

Kim Bise: (15:00)
Thanks for having me.

Stephanie: (15:06)
My next guest is Dr. Heather Koza, a mom and family medicine physician from Detroit, Michigan. She's @drmodernmom on Instagram, where she shares health and wellness tips and products. At the integrative clinic where she practices, one issue that Dr. Koza is often asked about is picky eating.

Speaker 4: (15:30)
Support for this podcast comes from Active Voice Communications. Whether you're looking for content strategy or help writing articles, white papers, reports, blog posts, and more, Active Voice is here. Learn more at theactivevoice.com.

Stephanie: (15:46)
We know there's a certain amount of picky eating. That's just normal for kids. But there's also a point where maybe we should be concerned. So I asked Dr. Koza to help us understand where that line is.

Dr. Heather Koza: (15:59)
Around 18 months you really get into eating habits. Eighteen months, if the kid is really still spitting food out, you're thinking more about textures, not so much does it taste good or bad. They don't understand this fish is overcooked or this fish is undercooked or things like that just yet. They're just like, "Wow that undercooked fish felt very weird in my mouth." So that's why they spit it out. They're really all about texture at that age. Some kids really love thickened feeds or purees still at 18 months. But in general, around 2 years, that's when I start asking, does your kid eat more than 30 foods? And if they're like, "No." That's definitely a picky eater.

Dr. Heather Koza: (16:38)
They're eating less than 20 foods? That's a problem eater. Then in cooperation with that, you look at the person's weight slash basal metabolic index. If they're around the two percentile, then you're definitely start worrying. We're not talking about health in this sense but if some mom is telling me, "My kid eats a hundred different foods." But their hundred different foods are all naturally unhealthy, like carbs. I still would consider that a picky eater because they're still sticking to one food group. But going back to the less than 20, less than 30, even if their BMI was normal or the rate was above the two percentile, which you will still see in kids who eat, say 50 different carbs. So that's the kid that will eat all the different types of breads. There's hundreds of different types of breads, various forms of rice.

Dr. Heather Koza: (17:26)
They'll eat all the potatoes. I don't necessarily go with just the number of 20 and 30. And I also don't go with just the 2%. I gauge every little aspect of the picture. Are they meeting their milestones? Are they having trouble going to the bathroom? What's their weight at? Those are probably one of the biggest misconceptions. You can still be an extremely picky eater and be overweight because that's the kid that just might like junk food or the kid that just likes carbs or the kid that just likes that one food group that's truly unhealthy and that's all that they're getting.

Stephanie: (18:01)
Conversely though, I guess that would be possible to be picky and still really super healthy, right? If those 20 or 30 foods were just the best foods you could be eating.

Dr. Heather Koza: (18:13)
I guess if you were like, "My kid only eats 20 fruits." No, I would be concerned about 20 fruits that your kid's only getting, because at the end of the day, you still do need carbs. You do need protein. Yes. I would still be concerned if some mom tells me, "My kid eats 20 different vegetables or 20 different fruits, but they're not eating any other food groups."

Stephanie: (18:34)
When we talk about picky eating, what are we doing wrong? Have we created the picky eater or are picky eaters just born that way?

Dr. Heather Koza: (18:43)
Definitely, I would say there's a component from each. You have a kid that has some developmental disability or sensory issue, yes, things just feel uncomfortable in their mouth. Or if you're referring to someone on the autism spectrum disorder, someone with Down syndrome, or even someone has their own medical problems, there are obviously allergies. Excluding that we don't necessarily have proof why a kid is picky. I would say that it's definitely a combination of the both; but just in general, some things that probably do happen is we usually feed our kids what we're used to or what we like and we don't kind of think outside the box always.

Dr. Heather Koza: (19:24)
And that comes with just having a very busy lifestyle and financially, right? I'm not going to go out and buy all this expensive food if I know my kid's not going to eat it, you don't want to be wasteful. Think about the environment. I'm not going to buy all this even if it's healthy, even if it's organic. I'm not going to buy food that I don't think my kids are going to eat because then it's going to go to waste. So I've just wasted money and I've just added to the whole food waste problem.

Stephanie: (19:51)
So what kinds of simple things can parents do to help encourage more adventurous eating?

Dr. Heather Koza: (19:57)
One thing I really practice is something called brand rotation. I don't have a favorite grocery store. I shop everywhere, and I don't have a favorite brand. I honestly can't even name you some brands, but I make a conscious effort that once I buy, say, healthy chips or something like that, I would not buy that brand anymore and buy the brand next to it. Another thing for education that I teach my parents is don't buy for yourself. I do encourage you to buy for your children. If there is something you don't like, and I always use the sardine example, I hate sardines. You should bring sardines home and let your kids try them.

Dr. Heather Koza: (20:33)
Going back to not being wasteful in the sense of adding to food waste, I say, buy one eggplant or buy one small carton of X, Y, or Z, and try to use it in multiple ways. So if you cooked half the eggplant and they didn't like it, maybe with how they didn't like the feeling in their mouth, the following day, use it in a different way. Don't just assume they don't like it and just don't throw it away.

Stephanie: (20:56)
Another tactic that Dr. Koza suggests is building on something your child already enjoys. So let's say your child's favorite food is pizza. Consider what it is they really like about pizza. Then the idea is to iterate. So did you buy the pizza from a takeout spot? Try a different one. Or consider making your own at home. Then you can start taking baby steps. Do they like the bread? Start by changing that out for a different type of bread.

Dr. Heather Koza: (21:25)
Take, like, naan bread. That's still a form of bread, right? So now you've gone from pizza crust to bread, but then you would still put the sauce and then you would still put the cheese. So you're making slow transitions on to something else. And what you're hoping is that you can get from point A to point C, whatever your end point is.

Stephanie: (21:43)
Are there any other steps that you recommend that we haven't covered?

Dr. Heather Koza: (21:47)
You definitely don't want to force a kid to eat, and you don't want to punish them for not eating. But on the flip side, you never want to reward with food because rewarding with food or punishing with food teaches kids that some foods are good and some foods are bad.

Stephanie: (22:01)
At the end of the day, Dr. Koza says we want to limit our stress and try to just go with the flow.

Dr. Heather Koza: (22:08)
I always tell parents do not compare your kid to anyone else's kid. So maybe your 2-year-old will eat a quarter of what a 4-year-old will eat or vice versa. And that's okay. So if your kid is meeting their milestones, then don't worry about it.

Stephanie: (22:22)
Thank you again to my guests today, Kim Bise and Dr. Heather Koza. I'll link to their social media and websites in the show notes at kiddosinthekitchen.com. In my house, picky eating and vegetables seem to go hand in hand. We're making progress though. Regular frequent exposures to vegetables seems to help. Staying calm does too. And you can tell me not to worry so much about it, but that's just not my personal style. I do worry about what kind of nutrition my son's getting, and I am concerned about whether he'll eat vegetables as an adult. At the same time, it is good to remember that not everything is a sprint and a love of all things green is most definitely a marathon. So whether you're struggling to get kids to eat vegetables or any food, let's first remember to have reasonable expectations. Let's slow down and try more progressive approaches to introduce new foods and flavors. And let's bring our kiddos into the kitchen, invite them to pull up a stool and help us chop vegetables.

Stephanie: (23:48)
And, hey, even if they don't start nibbling on the carrot or ask to try the broccoli, it's okay. You are making progress even when you can't see it. And more importantly, you're making memories and that's far more important than the broccoli anyway. Thanks for joining me for Kiddos in the Kitchen. I'm your host, Stephanie Conner, with a reminder from my son.

Conner: (24:30)
If you like my mom's podcast as much as I do, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Stephanie: (24:48)
That's right, Conner. You can also view the show notes, subscribe to our newsletter and check out all of our other content at kiddosinthekitchen.com, we’re @kiddoscook on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I'll be back next month with another fresh episode. Until then I encourage you to get your kiddos in the kitchen.