Season 2, Episode 5:
GETTING KIDS TO TRY NEW FOODS

Transcript

Allison Rinehart: (00:18)
Food is my love language. I express love by cooking and serving and feeding others. And I've done this my entire life. I was the kid in 1992 who was sending out self-addressed stamped envelopes through the Food Network to get my own recipes and try in my kitchen and failed many times. And it was okay. I learned how to love food. And I'm deeply passionate about helping kids make those types of connections in the kitchen with new and unfamiliar foods.

Stephanie: (00:48)
That's Allison Rinehart. She's a mom and a lover of food in Southern California, who is helping parents tackle a challenge in the kitchen that we can all relate to: getting kids to try new foods. Welcome to Kiddos in the Kitchen, a podcast about helping busy adults find the inspiration and information they need to teach the kids in their lives how to cook. I'm your host, Stephanie Conner. And today we're going to talk about getting kids to try new foods.

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Stephanie: (02:01)
Allison Reinhart loves food and cooking and has what I think we can call a refined palate. Through her company, Lil' Pinkies Up, she offers kids' cooking classes and consults with parents on how to help their picky eaters explore food. Part of her story and her understanding of kids comes from her own experience with blending her family. Allison, who has one child from her first marriage, met and married a man who had two kids of his own. And they had two very different approaches to cooking and eating. Let's pick up my conversation with Allison there.

Allison Rinehart: (02:40)
I'll start by saying feeding and eating is definitely on the spectrum of parenting choices, and there's no right or wrong way to parent your children when it comes to feeding and mealtime. What happens to work for your family works for your family. And there's no judgment. I may do it one way and some other parent may do it another.

Allison Rinehart: (03:02)
But when you're blending two families who have two very different ways of feeding, it's a parenting choice that you guys have to come on the same playing field with. Otherwise it's a divide and conquer game. When I was a single mom working full time, I didn't really have time to make her, quote baby food. I made her baby food, obviously when she was very young, but as soon as she started taking in solids, I would just give her nibbles of everything I was eating.

Allison Rinehart: (03:28)
If I made myself chicken piccata with some green beans and some mashed potatoes, she got really small portions of all of that on her high chair seat. And she would feed herself what she wanted to eat. That's just kind of the way I was doing it. When I met my now-husband, we had a very different ability in the kitchen, and not necessarily just ability, but passion.

Allison Rinehart: (03:49)
So people that aren't necessarily loving being in the kitchen, cooking can be a chore for some families. And for him, it was just a method of convenience to get through that task. And so the kids were often eating things that he knew they were going to, like he knew they were going to love, mealtime was done and they could get on with the rest of their day. There wasn't a whole lot of variety in what they were eating. And so when he and I decided to blend our families, we really had to look at those two different perspectives to see what we were going to choose together, moving forward.

Stephanie: (04:19)
So when you say that he was giving them things he knew they would like, are we talking like mac and cheese, chicken nuggets? Like those kinds of typical kid foods?

Allison Rinehart: (04:28)
Yeah, kids between the ages of 2 and 6 go through this picky stage. And it's a method of protection, it's ingrained in our DNA to avoid bitter and unfamiliar things. It's a survival mechanism. So a lot of kids during those ages will start to balk at foods that they may have eaten as a baby. It's just ingrained in our DNA. And so a lot of parents oftentimes will say, "Oh, well, this child doesn't like this food anymore," and then will only serve the foods that they know that the child will eat. It's a rut that I find that a lot of parents will fall in to. And what ends up happening is you create a child who would only eat certain foods. We wanted to correct a little bit of that and move forward towards eating things that were a little bit more variety.

Stephanie: (05:09)
When you started doing that, what were the kids' reactions?

Allison Rinehart: (05:13)
My whole mantra was to really kind of start with where they were at, meeting them where they were. And even though it sounds a little counterintuitive, we started out with making our homemade Happy Meals. We would make homemade chicken tenders, nothing fancy, no Parmesan cheese in the batter, literally just pieces of chicken dipped in egg and butter and a little bit of breadcrumbs, pan fried. And then we made homemade French fries and the kids were like, "Wow, it's a potato. This is what potatoes look like." We would make homemade French fries. And we would eat that with maybe like a side of carrots, that were really fun-looking. I went to the grocery store and got the ones with the fronds on top that were really pretty colors, so I knew they loved carrots. Carrots don't always have to be orange. They can be yellow, they can be white. They can be purple. And then, oh my gosh, when you bite inside, they have a different color.

Allison Rinehart: (06:04)
We started there and the skepticism was large. Just starting there was really challenging. But you know what, we celebrate the smallest victories. I remember the first time my older daughter ate French fries that had little bits of parsley on them. It was a celebration going off in my mind. I think so many times parents that have kids that are more selective eaters. It's so hard because you don't really know where to start. And a lot of times we're always focusing on going for the gold, which is to have them try something new, but there's a thousand mini-steps that need to be taken to get to that point. Sometimes looking and saying, "Oh my gosh, my kid just ate the chicken tender that didn't come from a bag from the freezer. That was a huge success." We started and met them where they were. And then we kind of graduated from there and started incorporating new ingredients.

Allison Rinehart: (06:55)
And the next time I made it, we had put a little Parmesan cheese in it. The next time we made fries, I made a roasted balsamic, strawberry ketchup for them, so it was a little bit different. We started making these changes and then we started incorporating new foods. We took them to Chipotle for the first time and we had almost face-melting tears, but we worked through that. The exposure, exposure, exposure with kids, even if they're not touching it or eating it, they're visually experiencing it on their plate. They're having these moments with that food. And they're building up experiences to get to know that food a little better. It's becoming more familiar, and you just have to let them slowly make these steps on the progression to either seeing, interacting, touching, tasting, eventually enjoying.

Stephanie: (07:39)
You mentioned exposure, exposure, exposure, and you've written about your 17 times rule. Can you describe what that rule is?

Allison Rinehart: (07:49)
It's deeply ingrained in science, but it's also a little bit quirky and fun, which is why it works for kids. The studies will go back and forth on how many food exposures kids need to have before their palate changes. I'm by no means a nutritionist or a feeding therapist, but I've experienced this with so many kids through the school of hard knocks that I know that kids need multiple exposures before they can accept a new food. If you ask a child, "How many times do you think you need to try something before you can say you don't like it?" 80 percent of kids will say one to three times. Most studies will say between 15 and 20 times. It takes about two to three weeks for your palate to change, your taste buds to change. And so encouraging kids to see that new food more times is good.

Allison Rinehart: (08:35)
I will make it kind of a fun game. And it sticks in kids' heads. I'll say, "Well, it's scientifically proven that you have to try a new food 17 times before you can actually say I don't like it." And so until then, we're going to expose, we're going to look, we're going to see, we're going to touch. We're going to maybe feel, and if we want to we're going to taste. And until then we will use words like "I don't prefer it" or another polite word, like "It's not my favorite," or "I'm not sure about the texture," or "The color seems funny to me." Using our words to describe what we're seeing and just keeping their minds open to trying new foods multiple times. Because if they think they can just say, "Oh, I don't like broccoli because I tried it twice." That doesn't really work because you're not working with science. You're not working with how your body needs to change and progress to start opening your palate to new foods.

Stephanie: (09:25)
That word choice. And you've described this as a politeness policy, right?

Allison Rinehart: (09:30)
Yes. I am a stickler for manners. And I really think raising polite, mindful kids is really important. And to be honest, most kids have no ill will or want to make anyone feel bad at mealtime by saying, "Ew, yuck, gross. This is disgusting." It just comes out because they have no filter. But teaching kids to understand and be mindful of other people and other people's feelings is so important. And letting them know that mom or dad or whoever their caretaker is took loving time and care to make a meal or buy a meal or present a meal for you. And we should give them the same amount of love and respect that your parents give you when you come home with, let's say, a piece of art from your kindergarten class.

Stephanie: (10:17)
One thing that you stress is that everyone eats the same thing, right? There's no grownup meal and kid meal.

Allison Rinehart: (10:24)
If you can tell me you know any mom or parent on the face of this planet that loves being a short order cook, please tell them to call me because I've never met one. But we get in a rut where we're like, "We want our kids to eat." We get worried like, "Oh my gosh, they're not going to eat if they don't eat that blue- box mac and cheese." Or, "They're not going to eat if I don't serve them nuggets." Well, the thing is that if you put a new food in front of them and they know if they whine and complain for 10 minutes, they're going to get that. I mean, they can smell that blue box of mac and cheese in the back of your pantry faster than they can smell anything you put in front of them if they know that's an opportunity for them.

Allison Rinehart: (10:57)
And so I created this idea of the politeness policy. It works for a lot of the kids that I have worked with in my private consulting and picky eating classes and cooking classes I do. But the nuts and bolts of it is this: Everybody is going to be polite, respectful at mealtime. We're going to use words that are respectful to mom or dad when they serve something new, we are guaranteed to have something on our plate we know tastes delicious. So let's say you have a kid that only eats Wonder Bread sandwiches with ketchup. Every person's going to have a quartered piece of a Wonder Bread sandwich with ketchup on it on their plate.

Allison Rinehart: (11:30)
There's a safe food in front of them. But mom and dad get to decide what is served and when, and the kids get to decide what they put in their body and how much. I really kind of spin it with kids. And I say, "You guys are going to be going on a new culinary adventure with your family. And you guys get to be the official taste testers of your mom and dad's food." Everybody's opinions are warranted and respected. And we talk about what we think we might prefer in the moment, things that we aren't quite sure about yet. But everybody is on this journey together and everyone's going to get the same food. The other piece of it that I think is really important about the politeness policy is that when you are serving something new to a child, putting a slab of meat lasagna is going to be a lot tougher for them to work through because it's all bunched together. Combined foods are tougher.

Allison Rinehart: (12:21)
Where if you maybe did like a Moroccan meatball and you said, "Okay, meatballs are cut up here on your plate at three o'clock; at six o'clock, you have your Mediterranean couscous; at nine o'clock you've got your toasted pita chips; and at 12 o'clock you've got your Wonder Bread ketchup sandwich." And then that way they can decide what they want to eat. I think that really is success of the politeness policy. Just using a polite word, if you try something or you smell something, or you taste something or you touch something that kind of seems new or different, we talk a lot about ways to communicate that to your parents and to your family, without using words that are hurtful, like "Ew, yuck and gross." What we like to do with new foods is to describe them.

Allison Rinehart: (13:04)
So if I'm serving shrimp for the first time, I'll say "I made a buttery garlic shrimp. It's going to be a little bit of a crunch on the inside and kind of chewy. And it's going to taste a lot like buttery garlic. And it's going to be warm and a little bit slippery in your mouth." That way the kids know. The new food can be very foreboding to a child. They have no idea what putting a green bean in their mouth might taste like. Or what the sensory experience is going to be. So as parents, if we can give them just a really quick rundown of here's what's on your plate, you sit down and you say, "This is dinner. You can eat what you want and you can choose not to eat what you don't want." They can eat anything in whatever order. And I can tell you from experience, most kids go for something that's on their dinner, quote, plate and they eat the dessert maybe in between or at the end of their meal.

Stephanie: (13:54)
For a lot of us, because we're so focused on what our kids are or are not eating, it's easy for the dinner conversation to go there. But Allison says the mealtime conversation shouldn't be about the meal itself.

Allison Rinehart: (14:09)
We don't talk about, "I don't want to eat this. I don't want to eat this." Because you know what? We don't have to, you don't have to eat anything on your plate. You don't want to, but this is dinner and this is what we've lovingly made tonight. And then that's the end of the conversation. That's the hardest point I think for parents, because I think a lot of parents, and I've fallen into this myself, are worried that they're not eating enough. If you are truly worried about what your kids are eating, and this is like a disclaimer, I say to any parent that I work with is that I work with picky eaters that have been picky for convenience, or for just lack of knowledge or a lack of structure and understanding. Kids that are falling into the problem eater section, where they eat less than 20 foods, they can't sit at the table. There's a lot of restriction there, that's definitely something for someone who is in the food therapy section or an occupational therapist. Someone who has got a medical diagnosis with maybe sensory processing.

Allison Rinehart: (15:03)
But if your kid's just not eating, because they know that they're going to get a peanut butter and jelly sandwich if they sit there for 10 minutes and whine and complain, that's the losing battle. The follow-through is the hardest part. And knowing that your kid may say, "But I'm hungry, but I'm hungry." When my kid said that, I said, "You know what? Breakfast is going to taste really good tomorrow morning."

Allison Rinehart: (15:26)
If you don't believe me, call your pediatrician and see what they say. Because they will tell you, your kid is not going to die if they don't eat dinner one night. Establish boundaries with your kids, knowing that this is what we've made, you choose what to eat and that's what we're serving. We're not making a separate meal for you after dinner. This is dinner. It takes kids a couple times to get used to it. You may experience some uncomfortable dinnertimes, but at the end of the day, they will understand the new order and the new rules and they will get hip to the jive.

Stephanie: (15:59)
I think what's neat about that is that sometimes when we're so focused on what is our kid eating, what ends up happening is we spend the whole dinnertime talking about what they're eating and not eating.

Allison Rinehart: (16:09)
Let me interject on that, because there's also like a reverse pressure that is once dinner is served, if the kids want to talk about their food, that's great. If they want to say, "I love these little broccoli trees, they look like little trees. And I love munching on them like I'm the big dinosaur." That's great. But once the meal is served, talk about what they did for the day. "How was school? How was your Zoom call? Did you go to the park? What did you do with the nanny today? Anything you want to talk about?" And in the same way parents can do, "How was your day? Well, I had a really tough conference call, but then I went out to lunch with a colleague of mine. It was really great." Whatever you want to say, but if they eat that green bean for the first time, as hard as it is to keep their celebration inside silent, it's so much better for your kids to not feel they're getting either praise or pressure on either side.

Allison Rinehart: (16:56)
If the green beans don't get eaten, you don't say, "Oh my gosh, you didn't even touch your green beans. I can't believe you didn't do that." Or, "Oh my gosh, you need to eat those. Those are super healthy for you. Those are healthy foods." I'm here to tell you, kids don't eat foods because they're healthy. They eat foods when they're fun or they taste really great. The same thing goes when they take that first bite of something and they get praised for it, "Good job, eating your broccoli." That also gives them the idea that they're getting attention. And I think taking attention off of what they're consuming and more on the relationship you're building at mealtime is so much more important for your kids. Not necessarily about what's on their plate. It's about the relationship that's happening at that family dinner.

Stephanie: (17:34)
I love that so much. Is there anything else that you do to help keep mealtimes as low stress as possible?

Allison Rinehart: (17:42)
Yeah, don't set yourself up with the expectation that you need to be putting the cover of Gourmet magazine in front of your kids every night. A simple, quick 10-minute dinner or picking up takeout, fine. We do that all the time, but if I'm ordering in Chinese food, which is what I'm actually doing tonight, my kids are partaking in that. I'm not ordering Chinese for my husband and I and then giving them mac and cheese, they're eating what we eat.

Allison Rinehart: (18:07)
It doesn't have to be like making this grandiose meal, and dinnertime, really what it's about is connecting with your kids and your family. The idea is being considerate and not catering. When you're starting off with new and unfamiliar ingredients, separating everything out, and that's part of being considerate, but not catering, a child may not want their chicken piccata slathered with capers and parsley and lemon sauce. They might want the chicken coming out of the pan, cut up and then have the sauce and everything on the side. They can dip and decide which combinations of foods they prefer; be considerate, but not catering.

Stephanie: (18:47)
Before we wrap up, is there anything else that you do to encourage kids to try new things and to help parents that we haven't covered?

Allison Rinehart: (18:55)
Kids want things to be fun. You don't have to do it every night, don't put yourself up with this seven days a week, "I'm going to be making fun food for my kids." But take one day a week, maybe it's a Sunday where you can engage your child in the cooking process to see, smell, taste even one or two steps of a recipe with you. That way they can know what's going into their food. I'm just using chicken piccata, again, as an example. Let them cut the lemon. And then even if they're sitting and playing a game, go let them smell how beautiful a fresh-cut lemon smells, and then bring the capers over and say, "These are capers, they're briny. And they kind of look a little bit like tiny, tiny, tiny currants. And they taste kind of like a pickle. And they're going to go into this butter sauce."

Allison Rinehart: (19:43)
And then bring the kids over and let them smell the sauce as it's cooking. It's about the steps and the process. It's about understanding and building a relationship with new foods, knowing what's been going into it. Give them a taste of the Parmesan cheese, say it's really hard and nutty and a little bit of an umami flavor. And you can even talk about what umami is. Be a little bit fun. If you're going to serve salad to a kid, put it on a skewer, salad dressing on the side. That's a number one way I get kids to eat salad.

Allison Rinehart: (20:13)
Or take familiar ingredients and make them into something that they may pick through. If you want to serve salad to a picky eater, use goldfish as a crouton or cute little pretzel rounds, something that's familiar to them. Take the lettuce and whatever else, maybe cubed cheese, maybe a little bit of avocado, put it on a skewer and let them dip their dressing and their croutons in with it. It makes it fun. It's a great sensory experience for them because the next time when you make a composed salad, they may accept it.

Stephanie: (20:49)
My next guest is Edel Denha. She's a mom who runs a massage and facial center in Michigan. And she's Edel Denha on Instagram, where she talks about family, parenting and womanhood, life. I asked Edel to join me to share her family's food journey and how she manages food and cooking in her own home.

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Edel Denha: (21:32)
My daughter was diagnosed with a rare disease called biliary atresia, it's a liver disease. She got diagnosed with it technically six weeks after she was born, but we started to lead up to that diagnosis within days after she was born. She was jaundiced and we did blood work. And from there in order to officially get the diagnosis, we had to have a procedure called the Kasai procedure done. And that's when they were able to prolong the need for the transplant. She will eventually need a transplant, but that procedure helped to prolong the need for it.

Stephanie: (22:13)
How old is your daughter now?

Edel Denha: (22:15)
She's 8 years old.

Stephanie: (22:17)
How did her diagnosis affect the way that you thought about food and nutrition?

Edel Denha: (22:23)
Initially, I started to get so hyper paranoid, just like how any mom would do. I started wanting to find out if there was like a diet that's specific for this type of disease. There's that struggle out there because with medical doctors, they don't talk about food. They just talk about medicine. God bless them, she needed the medicine. So I'm not doubting that, but I wanted to also try the natural route of what I can do to kind of help this. So I just started reading books about kids' nutrition and kind of turned hyper paranoid, and just made everybody eat everything super clean. It got so exhausting. Even to me, I was mentally exhausting myself along with everybody around me. So I finally started to learn to balance it. And I would say, now I just do my best. I try to be as clean as possible at home, and my vision now is more like my kids are going to learn from my examples.

Edel Denha: (23:30)
So they might not catch on right now. They still want things that are conventional and I'm okay with that. I have to let them be human. They go to a public school system, they see other kids eating things they want to eat too. So I'm just okay with them eating almost whatever they want. But I always try to educate them as much as possible. That's fine, you can have Cheez-Its and whatever, but let's try to make the next snack an apple or something just because your body's needing that. It's going to get more full from an apple than it would from Cheez-Its.

Stephanie: (24:06)
When you say eating clean, what does that mean for your family?

Edel Denha: (24:10)
Well, before it was everything super organic, everything grass-fed, everything perfect. Fruits and vegetables, and trying just to stay away from every, like, chemical that's in our foods. But now it's more just balanced. I try to cook at home as much as I could, and that's to me clean because I know what I'm putting in it. And it doesn't mean that I don't ... Some people don't like meat. We eat meat in our household. Cooking at home, to me, that's clean.

Stephanie: (24:40)
Edel clearly sees value in eating whole foods. And that can often mean cooking at home. But like a lot of busy moms, she doesn't love to cook, and she has a day job. So I asked her how she's managing, especially in the middle of the pandemic.

Edel Denha: (24:57)
I try not to put pressure on myself. I've tried meal prepping. To me that's too much, but I'm meal prepping my own kind of way. If I could, for the day, make a few things to throw in the fridge for everybody, I try to. I'll take one of those party trays that you can put a bunch of different snacks. And then it usually has a middle section, but has like a bunch of dividers and I'll put grapes and cucumbers and carrots and celery. And then I'll also throw in some Cheez-Its and some sort of candy or something like that, so that they have a mixture of it all.

Edel Denha: (25:31)
And that does wonders for me because they will eat, of course, the junky stuff, but they'll also eat the cleaner things too. And I don't put any pressure on them. I'm not like "This needs to be done by the end of the day" or anything like that. It's just keeping them exposed to it is what is the key.

Stephanie: (25:50)
What are the biggest challenges for you when you go to cook? Is it time, or --

Edel Denha: (25:55)
For sure, I would definitely say time is the biggest challenge.

Stephanie: (25:59)
Every mom, everywhere.

Edel Denha: (26:00)
Right. Yeah, because you want to make these amazing challenging meals, but I don't have three hours to watch over something. So I would say, yeah, for sure, time. Sometimes figuring out the menu is such a struggle. I have three children, so I have to find out, what are they all three going to be happy with? If I do tacos, for example, one of my sons is okay with the traditional taco. The other one turns it into nachos. And then my daughter pretty much follows whatever the other one does. So she will typically make nachos too. So it works because I'm able to fulfill all of their needs. I try to do that with any meal that I make, even if it's like a traditional Middle Eastern meal, I try to make sure that if I'm throwing a veggie in there that I'll throw a couple of veggies and know that Chase likes carrots and Cruz likes celery. I'll throw both of them in there just to have that happy medium.

Stephanie: (26:55)
And then as you're thinking about meals and food, does your daughter's health condition today affect the choices that you're making?

Edel Denha: (27:03)
Yes and no. Like I said, I have chilled out a lot about overstressing it. Because I think eventually she's going to get to the point where she just sees the value in being more cautious about the things that she's eating.

Stephanie: (27:18)
In our homes we often have dishes or entire meals that are significant to us. When Edel mentioned cooking Middle Eastern food, it made me curious what dishes are important in her home and what she hopes her kids learn how to make.

Edel Denha: (27:32)
Our most traditional dish is rice and stew. And the stew changes up with the type of vegetable you're using. There's numerous different stews you can make, and basically the changes are mainly the vegetable and the seasonings that you'll put in there. I don't know what it is about that meal, but it's what they want to eat every single day.

Edel Denha: (27:57)
It's so effortless as a mom, when they're so young and they're all willing to eat the same meal, definitely hope that they carry on that tradition. I still see them liking it now, but they don't want me to make it anymore. They'd just like to eat it when they're at my mom's house or my mother-in-law's house. It's funny because they kind of had so much of it when they were younger, but there's so many other Middle Eastern meals that I can make that they enjoy now. But that main one is one that I think sticks with everybody. I think once they get older and have their own household and stuff, they'll probably learn how to make Middle Eastern meals.

Stephanie: (28:37)
Thank you again to my guests today, Allison Rinehart and Edel Denha. I'll share links where you can follow them and learn more about them in the show notes at kiddosinthekitchen.com. In our house, we're creatures of habit, lovers of routine, fans of the familiar. We have a few meals on rotation, mommy chicken number one, we call it, with a salad is on the menu every week. Carnitas every seven to 10 days, mommy pizza, too, things I can make without pulling in a recipe or having to think about my grocery list.

Stephanie: (29:19)
Things I don't have to persuade my son to try. Things I know I won't have to listen to him complain about because nothing makes me feel better than when he asks "What's for dinner?" and is happy or even helps to make it. And honestly, 2020 was, well, you know. It was the kind of year that was built for familiarity in the kitchen. As we start the new year, though, I'm personally planning to take a page out of Allison Reinhart's book.

Stephanie: (29:51)
We're going to discuss how to be polite, and I'm going to keep trying new meals and putting them on the table. And we're not going to focus on the meal during the meal, we're going to focus on one another, our days, our plans, our feelings. And we're going to continue to plan meals and cook together when it's possible.

Stephanie: (30:12)
I hope you'll take this opportunity at the start of a new year to join me and think about what you want to accomplish in the kitchen with your kiddos. We might love the familiar, but trying new foods and expanding our kids' palates is part of parenting. Besides, it's good for us grownups, too. Happy New Year.

Stephanie: (30:39)
Thanks for joining me for Kiddos in the Kitchen. I'm your host, Stephanie Conner, with a reminder from my son.

Conner: (30:45)
If you like my mom's podcast as much as I do, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Google podcast, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Stephanie: (31:05)
That's right, Conner. You can also view the show notes, subscribe to our newsletter and check out all of our other content at kiddosinthekitchen.com. We're kiddos cook on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. And I'll be back next month with another fresh episode. Until then I encourage you to get your kiddos in the