Season 2, Episode 6:
THE MEAL IS THE BYPRODUCT

Conner: (00:00)
Welcome to Kiddos In the Kitchen, a podcast hosted by my mom.

Charlotte: (00:17)
You have to clean as you go.

Phillip Baxman: (00:24)
Boom. Life lesson. I'm going to put this... Where do I put this? In the microwave?

Charlotte: (00:28)
No.

Phillip Baxman: (00:30)
Where do I need to put it?

Charlotte: (00:31)
In the freezer.

Phillip Baxman: (00:33)
In the freezer. Okay. Excellent. Step one. Done.

Stephanie: (00:37)
That's professional chef Phillip Baxman, and his daughter, Charlotte, in the kitchen. In this video, you can see Charlotte, age 8, wielding a chef's knife as she cuts a stick of butter into squares. The first step in cooking an omelet. As you watch Phillip and Charlotte, it is clear they cook together a lot. What does that look like, I wondered?

Stephanie: (01:01)
Welcome to Kiddos In the Kitchen, a podcast about helping busy adults find the inspiration and information they need to teach the kids in their lives how to cook. I'm your host, Stephanie Conner. And today I'm excited to share a professional chef's perspective on teaching his own kids how to cook.

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Stephanie: (01:57)
Phillip Baxman's career has taken him to Colorado, Washington, DC, Michigan and Ohio. Without a formal culinary school education, he's climbed the ladder working for restaurants, country clubs, and major hotel chains, Marriott, Hyatt, Westin. He's currently the executive chef for the Westin in Cincinnati. He has three children and his oldest, Charlotte, is becoming quite the little cook. He says she was 2 or 3 when they started cooking together. And their first project was perogies.

Phillip Baxman: (02:30)
That was the first thing we ever made, was perogies. She just helped me with the dough and she would eat it. And that's really when we started. I would give her things to mix, give her things to hold.

Stephanie: (02:41)
Did you see that she had some interest, or was it more just out of necessity, you're trying to multitask as a parent?

Phillip Baxman: (02:48)
I think it's something that I always really wanted that to be something for her and I to connect on. Something that's just really special, because I'm very passionate about what I do in the culinary world. And I wanted to be able to share that with her. Selfishly, I'm thinking way down the line when she's in college and all these boys want to try and woo her over with a nice meal, I want her to turn around and say, "That's nothing. You want something, here you go. I'll make you a soufflé."

Stephanie: (03:18)
So you mentioned the perogies and working that dough. What other kinds of skills did you introduce first?

Phillip Baxman: (03:25)
First was a lot of easy stuff. Mixing, making omelets, scrambling the eggs. That's how we started. We slowly started going into identifying different foods and tasting different foods. And we started with mixing and baking. The very easy things. Eventually, we just kind of naturally progressed with anything that I was doing. There wasn't really a rhyme or reason to how she got introduced to a lot of it. It was just kind of, I was making something and she was there, or we would make dinner and I wouldn't necessarily shy away from letting her do something, or letting her try something, or getting near the fire or anything like that.

Stephanie: (04:11)
Well, talk about that a little bit. Because you have also said that she has really great knife skills. And when you talk about you were okay with letting her get near the fire. I also think about the knives and the safety. So how do you think about managing danger and safety in the kitchen when you have a kiddo in there with you?

Phillip Baxman: (04:30)
Yeah. The biggest thing for that is... Think about this. What's the absolute worst thing that's going to happen? She might get burned.

Stephanie: (04:38)
You burn the house down.

Phillip Baxman: (04:39)
Okay. You went really drastic. I'm thinking that --

Stephanie: (04:44)
... You could burn the house down. You could maim your child.

Phillip Baxman: (04:49)
I'm thinking that maybe my daughter will get a cut or a burn.

Stephanie: (04:54)
I'm really good at worst-case scenario.

Phillip Baxman: (04:56)
Yeah. So always have a fire extinguisher. In my mind, the worst thing that could really have happened with my direct supervision is that she'll get a little burn or a little cut. And if I'm supervising properly, if I'm right there with her, then that really won't happen. But in my mind, that was the worst thing that could happen. And I think that with knives, and with cooking and with anything dangerous or really far beyond just these, with anything at all, when it comes to my kids per se, I don't want to shy away from it. Using knife skills as an example, I'm not going to say, "Don't touch that. That's sharp. You can cut yourself." I'm not going to say that. I'm going to say, "Charlotte, do not touch that knife without direct supervision. And if you're going to do it, this is how we need to do it." Teaching the right way, the first time. As opposed to making this some mythical fancy knife that only mommies and daddies can use.

Phillip Baxman: (05:54)
And when they're not looking, I'm going to go get it and see what this is all about. No, take the mystery away. Now, I'm not saying give them Ginsu sword and tell them, "Go at it." But I didn't make a huge deal about her wanting to learn how to cut. I took the precautions. I ordered particular knives for her that still cut, it wouldn't cut as bad, but they're specifically for kids. There's lots of beginning kids' knife sets out there that help you with the grip that can still cut product and cut tomatoes, but won't gash her finger. So we started with those. It wasn't until she was 7 when I got her, her first Global knife. And that's a very nice brand of knife. Those are the knives that I use in my kitchen. It's just so important about teaching them the right way to start, as opposed to making it some mystery.

Phillip Baxman: (06:48)
That's with flipping an omelet, making an egg, using the pan. As long as the rules and everything are set, and you trust that your child is going to follow those, and you take precautions to make sure that they do, like not leaving knives lying around, I see personally no problem with doing it that way. I remember growing up and I received some advice when I was young that told me don't get a credit card. Don't do that. And so what happened? I'm 29 years old and I have no credit. I have no credit card. Getting my first credit card at 29. And that's not right. You've got to just learn to do it the right way the first time.

Stephanie: (07:27)
It sounds like you just have sort of a chill attitude going into the kitchen. And I'm sure some of that is just you're really at home in the kitchen. But when you think about spending time in the kitchen with Charlotte, how are you approaching that time? How do you make sure that you stay calm and don't get frazzled?

Phillip Baxman: (07:46)
It's very challenging sometimes, especially when she has such big ideas. I always just try and remind myself to let her drive the bus. And for me to just tell her which direction to go. It's become a little bit more of a challenge since we have three kids now who are completely mobile to find that time, that one-on-one time, because Silas wants to help all the time too. And he's not even 3 yet. So that's a challenge. But when it's just her and I, especially now, I think a lot of the work that we had done when she was younger, really gave her a lot of confidence. We made wontons for her school. I went in and did a demonstration for her class, and we ended up making 60 wontons. I made one and I showed her, this is the way that works out well, that this has to be closed with eggs so the filling doesn't get out.

Phillip Baxman: (08:35)
And she went on and made 60 of them pretty much by herself. It's just, it's all about how you look at it. And making sure that you don't have an agenda. When I work in the kitchen with Charlotte, I cannot have an agenda. I cannot have the mentality that I have at work of just trying to get stuff done. I can't have it. When we're cooking in the kitchen, we're not feeding people. I mean, really we are, but that's the byproduct. We're spending time together doing an activity. A byproduct of that is that we get to eat something hopefully tasty. Sometimes not so much. But during those times that it's not so much, you still have to eat it and think it's tasty.

Stephanie: (09:15)
Yep. Absolutely.

Phillip Baxman: (09:16)
Like the time she made us breakfast in bed. She brought us a banana that she cut, she put some butter all over it, and then topped it off with salt and brought it up to us. That was not good.

Stephanie: (09:29)
That's so sweet.

Phillip Baxman: (09:31)
But I took a bite. Yeah. Again, it's looking at it as an activity. It's teaching life skills, and it's bonding and it's working together. And that's really how I kind of stay as calm as I can. There's times that I haven't been able to stay that calm because I started looking at it as, well, we need to get this done. When I cook with Charlotte and we have an agenda, if she wants to help make dinner, that's when it's like, "Okay. Well, this is what we have to do. This, this, this, this and this." We can't have any of her grand ideas of these secret recipes that she wants to have. Like unicorn meat. And it's not going to happen. But it's about treating it as an activity and not putting food on the table. That's the byproduct.

Stephanie: (10:18)
As you think back over these last few years of spending time in the kitchen with Charlotte, is there anything in your teaching process that maybe you would've done differently? With Silas, for example?

Phillip Baxman: (10:33)
I'm not necessarily sure because she's... I mean --

Stephanie: (10:36)
... You just nailed it.

Phillip Baxman: (10:38)
I would like to be able to spend more time with her. And I think there have been times that I haven't been able to stay as patient. I can remember specifically this one time where she wanted to make this fruit salad, but she wanted to make it in a way that she had seen on Chopped Junior. And I didn't see that episode. And I wasn't aware what she was talking about. So I was trying to direct her in a path and show her the direction that we should go. Where she had this idea, and she got very upset, and she started crying and I ended up sending her to her room.

Phillip Baxman: (11:11)
I didn't get it. I didn't understand what was going on. So we didn't communicate as well as we could have. And I wasn't listening to her. I did that more as an agenda. And it was later in the evening and I had things to do. And I looked at it as an agenda in the time frame, as opposed to an activity that I got to spend with my daughter. And there was one time she burned herself. I could have been a little bit more watchful. But other than that --

Stephanie: (11:45)
Other than that, nailed it.

Phillip Baxman: (11:45)
Yeah.

Stephanie: (11:48)
Before we move on to our kitchen questions, do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share?

Phillip Baxman: (11:55)
Don't be afraid to let your kids in the kitchen with you. And I still, to this day, think there's times, just like, "She can't do that. She can't do that." It's amazing and surprising the amount of knowledge that these kids have just from being around the kitchen and watching us. Don't be afraid to bring them into that world. They love it. Just don't have that fear. Allow them into it. Give them the dough to touch, and to play with and make a big mess. I know Silas tried to make... Oh, man. He was making wontons, too, and he was just destroying them. Destroying them.

Phillip Baxman: (12:34)
But he had that experience. And it was a big mess that I had to clean up. If I was looking at it differently, as something we had to get done, then I might've been upset. I tried to divert his attention towards just doing a couple. "You have these five, these are yours to make." Just bring them into the world that you're in there cooking and have fun with it.

Stephanie: (12:58)
And now it's time for kitchen questions, where I ask my guests a few quick questions to understand him and his kitchen a little better.

Child: (13:09)
It's time for kitchen questions. I have a question. What would happen if you put a little bit of the wrong ingredient inside a cookie? Why are cupcakes squishy? How often do you burn things on accident? Do you like cake? What is the difference between baking and roasting? What is your favorite recipe?

Stephanie: (13:37)
What is the one ingredient you always have on hand?

Phillip Baxman: (13:41)
Fresh thyme.

Stephanie: (13:43)
I think you're the first person to say that.

Phillip Baxman: (13:44)
My favorite herb.

Stephanie: (13:46)
What is your quick go-to dinner?

Phillip Baxman: (13:49)
Tilapia or salmon and roasted vegetables.

Stephanie: (13:52)
Now, do the kids eat that?

Phillip Baxman: (13:53)
Yeah. I make an aioli for them, a dipping sauce.

Stephanie: (13:57)
What is your go-to when you entertain?

Phillip Baxman: (14:00)
Short ribs.

Stephanie: (14:01)
Over pasta or --?

Phillip Baxman: (14:04)
With grits.

Stephanie: (14:05)
What is your kids' favorite meal that you cook?

Phillip Baxman: (14:07)
If you asked Charlotte, it is everything. Everything that I make her is the best meal she's ever had. She is the sweetest.

Stephanie: (14:17)
That's the best.

Phillip Baxman: (14:17)
Silas, I don't know. He asked for cheesy eggs. I gave him cheesy eggs. And he threw a tantrum and said he didn't want them. He said he didn't like them. But honestly, they all love squiggly noodles.

Stephanie: (14:28)
Squiggly noodles. All right. Any sort of sauce?

Phillip Baxman: (14:32)
The ramen noodles with the seasoning packet.

Stephanie: (14:36)
Good. Are you a cast iron, or nonstick, stainless steel skillet kind of person?

Phillip Baxman: (14:41)
Each has its own application. Cast iron promotes your searing. The nonstick for breakfast and eggs. And stainless steel really for your utility. Also depends how much time you have to clean up.

Stephanie: (14:54)
Where do you go for recipe inspiration?

Phillip Baxman: (14:57)
America's Test Kitchen.

Stephanie: (14:58)
Yay. They're one of my favorites. Well, thanks for playing my little game.

Stephanie: (15:06)
My next guest is Dr. Lauri Wright, a registered dietician, the chair of the Department of Nutrition and Dietetics at the University of North Florida and a spokeswoman for the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. She has an idea for a kitchen activity that I thought would be fun for upcoming spring breaks next month.

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Stephanie: (15:49)
Dr. Wright has an idea for a kitchen activity that I thought would be fun for upcoming spring breaks next month. She shares an idea for slumber-party oats. Obviously, with social distancing, we probably won't be having a ton of kids in our homes anytime soon. But it would still be fun with your own kiddos, and maybe some cousins or others in your bubble.

Dr. Lauri Wright: (16:10)
When I think of fun in the kitchen, I think about slumber parties with my daughters. I have three daughters and we had a lot of slumber parties as they were growing up. One of the fun things that we did with the girls and their friends is to make slumber-party oats. We would pull out the rolled oats and different ingredients that they could add and individualize their oats. Chia seeds, or nuts, dark chocolate chips, dried cranberries. And everybody would get a mason jar and make their individualized personal oats that would stay in the refrigerator overnight, add milk, and maybe some vanilla, peanut butter, whatever they wanted to add to it. There were some very interesting creations, but everybody really enjoyed the activity. And by participating and making it their own, they all really ate it. They would share with one another, but they would always eat a good breakfast of the oats the next day.

Stephanie: (17:18)
In terms of proportions, the oats and the milk are liquid. Are you just following whatever's recommended on the oatmeal canister?

Dr. Lauri Wright: (17:28)
It's about one cup of oats and one cup of milk in the mason jar. And then just add whatever you want. A teaspoon of vanilla extract, a couple of tablespoons of chocolate chips, or a tablespoon of chia seeds, whatever proportions that you want of the fun ingredients.

Stephanie: (17:48)
That's such a good idea for a slumber party. It doubles as an activity to keep them busy and breakfast in the morning.

Stephanie: (17:56)
Thank you again to my guests today, chef Phillip Baxman and Dr. Lauri Wright. You can check out Phillip's videos with his daughter by searching for Charlotte and My Sous Chef Daddy on YouTube. And I'll link to the video and other social media pages and resources in the show notes at kiddosinthekitchen.com.

Stephanie: (18:13)
In our conversation, chef Phillip posed a somewhat rhetorical question. What's the worst thing that could happen? And I said, only half joking, "You could burn your house down or maim your child." He went a more reasonable direction and said, "A small cut or a tiny burn." Now, to me as a protective mom, that still seems pretty bad. But for a professional chef, who's had more than his share of kitchen mishaps, these small injuries are nothing. Clearly, when he's cooking with his kids he's pretty darn calm. Part of that stems from his own confidence in the kitchen. But it's also because he knows the reason he's cooking. Teaching, bonding, being together and building memories. "The meal is the byproduct," he said, and I love that. At work, the meal is what matters. But at home, what matters is something actually much bigger. So this month let's pause to remember why we cook with our kids. Let's put aside those fears and approach kitchen time with joy and calm.

Stephanie: (20:07)
Thanks for joining me for Kiddos In the Kitchen. I'm your host, Stephanie Conner, with a reminder from my son.

Conner: (20:13)
If you like my mom's podcast as much as I do, you can subscribe at Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Stitcher, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Stephanie: (20:33)
That's right, Conner. You can also view the show notes, subscribe to our newsletter and check out all of our other content at kiddosinthekitchen.com, or Kiddos Cook on Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And I'll be back next month with another fresh episode. Until then, I encourage you to get your kiddos in the kitchen.